Last night looked very promising. I logged on, and IMMEDIATELY queue for my random ZG/ZA, since the DPS average wait time is back to 30 minutes or so again. But a more immediate offer came through Guild Chat.
"I'm a tank. Anyone for a random ZG/ZA?"
Three DPS (myself included) immediately accepted the offer, giving us a 4-man group only lacking a healer. With no healers immediately available in the guild, we went ahead and queued, and quickly picked up a PUG healer who had never run the ZG dungeon selected for us.
"I've never been in here, just so you know." He admitted.
"All you need is a high tolerance for wipes." I responded.
"No problem there."
We made our way past the poison clouds and bees to the first big stupid wooden mask, who killed one of my DPS Guildies with his laser vision. Guildie immediately quit/logged/dc'ed/died or something. He was GONE. At least he was smart enough not to stay online where we could have berated him in guild chat for being spineless.
After killing the big stupid mask and moving right along to the snake brothers and their green cauldron, more trouble lie in store for our group. Despite me specifically stating not to let the green debuff run out (important info our virgin healer needed to know), our other DPS Guildie did not heed my warning, let it run out, and got himself dead.
"That's all I can take." he said, and left the group. Really? That's all? One death? How did you EVER manage to level to 85?
"What is UP with our Guild leaving the group?!" I asked the tank, now the only other member of our Guild still with me.
"I don't know. I only joined the guild 15 minutes ago." He said.
"Oh. Welcome! And, uh... we aren't ALL spineless quitters and cry-babies."
While waiting for a fresh set of DPS, we moved on into the next room where the High Priest with his green poison maze awaited. Things got weird at that point.
A good set of people joined. Lots of shiny gear, with smoke and glowing bits sticking out here and there. They looked pretty dangerous. I was feeling positive about it. Then our virgin healer DC'ed. Could've been an internet problem, because nothing was really happening and he'd been doing fine up to that point.
The new healer arrived, and I quickly Soul Stoned him and buffed with Dark Intent. But before the tank could pull, the healer was gone - he'd zoned back to SW and was in the Trade District - and would not respond to our messages of "Are you coming?!?" Finally he quit the group. I was gape-mouthed. Friggin healer ran off with my Soul Stone! (In a previous post, I wrote that I hoped that they were building an extra-deep pit in hell for Soul Stone Quitters. - If they've completed it yet, they can test the depth of it by tossing in THIS GUY first.)
While the tank was trying to ask why the healer left, the rest of the new shiny gear crew did the same. They all took off. I don't get it, and neither did he. Why spend 30 minutes in queue, just to enter a zone, stare at a boss for less than a minute, then quit without even making an attempt?
"Is there a revolving door in here?" I asked.
The tank requeued us again, and we picked up two very unassuming DPS and new healer. The two DPS had none of the prior quitters shiny smoking flashy fancy gear. They looked fresh out of a regular instance. Per my usual policy, I didn't bother to review their gear though, or even look at what type of DPS they were. I just made another check of my buffs to be sure everything I needed was up, gave the new healer Dark Intent (no Soul Stone of course - still on CD), and then the Tank pulled Mr. Poison Maze before anyone else had a chance to quit.
I went from being #1 DPS with my 11.5K to just about dead last. Because our two new unassuming DPS toons were rocking 29K each. It was CRAZY! Mr. Poison Maze only got to go through one cycle. When he came back down from the top of his stairs, he died while he was still in that stunned crouch.
Suddenly, things were looking a LOT sunnier. ZG became a faceroll. These guys were killing trash before I could get my first spell off. I knew at that point that I was just along for the ride. We killed the boss that rides the dino-bone mount without ever bothering to kill the mount (thereby picking up the achievement). We rolled over cat-woman and everyone else in our way. And we were done in a very short amount of time.
Ultimately, I guess it worked out that a pile of people dropped in and out until we had a super-winning combination. Given a choice, I group with the guys putting out crazy DPS every time. But I still can't figure out what's going on with all the quitting. Are these 1-shot quitters like that Chess Champion who could foresee a distant unfavorable outcome - and therefore just quit immediately rather than continue? Or did their modem suddenly explode? Why join a random heroic and then immediately leave before even one fight? It makes no sense to me.
If you're guilty doing of this, I'd be VERY interested in hearing from you in the comments. What is going on - why join and then quit? Why quit after one wipe? I promise not to be judgmental (see the halo I'm wearing?) - you know from reading my posts just how ABSOLUTELY FAIR AND UNBIASED all of my posts are. So go ahead a write to me all about it!
Mortigan the EXTREMELY Patient
First I'd just like to say I've yet to log out just to leave a group. I've always asked for a kick or left and suffered the possible cooldown. Secondly, I've never run off with a soul stone, that is SO RUDE. I hate logging out and loosing my conjured mana strudel! I apologize on behalf of all healers. :( Lastly, I've been getting dc'd a lot in the last week. The trigger for me seems to be a log in screen. Be it logging in or going into a dungeon the blue bar will be loading and the next thing I know I've been dc'd. It hasn't prevented me from logging back in however. I did notice either last night or the night before (or was it both?) that our group kept loosing people the same way...for no reason someone who seemed eager and happy would fall off the edge of the World of DC Craft at some odd time! This makes me wonder...was it really the people, or is it a Blizzard problem? Obviously some of your group wanted out of there, but the random dc's I have to wonder... Gratz on another great read ;)
ReplyDeleteI'm frankly a little shocked that a Waypointer would drop out so silently like that. I can't explain it. :(
ReplyDeleteMy own standard for quitting a group is pretty simple: As long as we're making progress, even if it's slow, and people aren't being jerks to each other, I'll stick around. Wiping is okay, as long as each time we're doing a little bit better. If we're failing again and again to the same problems, though, I might eventually bail out. Usually the rest of the group leaves before I have to do that, however. My most common reason for leaving is rude, insulting behaviour, or non-consensual dumb stunts (you know the kind of thing I mean, I'm sure...)
That said, though, what you're talking about here is something I've noticed a lot too: A tank and a healer have to be reasonably-geared and competent, or the run will fail outright. But the difference between a smooth run and a long slog usually comes down to smart, capable DPS. Even during Wrath of the Lich King, notorious for "easy" heroics, good DPS could make the difference between success and failure in someplace like Halls of Reflection. Maybe the Cataclysm heroics aren't quite as hard as the Burning Crusade ones, but they're full of encounters where the determinant of victory isn't tank gear or healer mana, but how fast the boss and the adds go down.
When I was learning to type, they would test our speed in words-per-minute copying a text onto the typewriter. Each error in the result would cause some number of WPM to be deducted from your result to reflect the fact that you'd done it wrong. I wish the same standard could be applied to players: What matters isn't what the meter says, but what we actually accomplished, together, as a group.
You're braver than I am to pug into the Zulroics. So far I have only gone once, and that was with a couple of guildmates. I'm very sorry that your experience of doing the same wasn't quite as positive. :(
As a healer who just got to 346 ilvl and tried a random ZG for the first time (and the only time thus far), I did end up leaving after the 3rd wipe on Venoxis, for 2 reasons. A) the group was trying to rush everything and I hadn't done it before, and B) we didn't seem to be making any progress, and I left before they could start talking shit about me. Regardless of the fact that they had praised my healing on the boss prior to him, I've been conditioned to getting blamed for everything that goes wrong in a heroic and for whatever reason thought they would be better off with a healer who knew the fight.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous - Hmmm... so maybe some weird Blizzard glitch or conspiracy. I'll chew on that theory.
ReplyDelete@Lara - I've never announced it, but I am no longer in Waypoint. I exited very quietly so as not to make any scene, because I dearly LOVE everyone in Waypoint. Unfortunately, though, my schedule has me logging in when everyone else is logging out, and so I wasn't really getting to group with any Waypoint folk. So I talked with @Snack_Road and peaceably left. I joined Vero, because they are super-humongous and will have piles of people on at pretty much any hours, thereby giving me a chance to group with guildies.
For your other points, it seemed like people weren't even making any determination regarding a lack of quality in the healer or tank... they'd just zone in, look around, zone out. Makes no sense to me. The two guildies who quit simply didn't seem to have any tolerance for death. I guess I could understand leaving if it was a full PUG and everyone was obviously undergeared, but I've honestly never seen Guild members just up and quit a guild run. I don't think it EVER happened to me back in my Wrath days.
@Criamond Sorry to hear you're always catching the blame. Come group with me. I never complain in game. On here, that's another story, but hey... I've got to write about SOMETHING... =oD
Hmm, maybe the "tourists" didn't realize they'd queued for a Zul'roic? I have no explanation. Even if I zoned in to find everyone dead and our "tank" was a ret paladin in greens, I'd at least say wtf before leaving.
ReplyDeleteI will on very rare occasions leave after one wipe if the cause of the wipe is obvious and not fixable. Bad attitudes are the primary one here - tank who yells at the healer for drinking, dps who point blank refuse to CC. Sometimes also just spacial awareness issues - I remember leaving a wrath heroic in incredible frustration after people had asspulled like 7 groups of trash without apologizing.
I'll leave after about 3-4 wipes on the same boss to the same problem - if DPS is just too low or the tank is too squishy or my mana won't hold out or people cannot learn interrupts, it's a waste of time. If we're improving & people are friendly, I'll stay.
I'll leave without any wipes if people are being hateful- I can happily wipe with nice people who are improving but not happily kill dargons with racists.
Although these runs aren't fun to do, they always make good stories afterwards ^^ Kind of like "this was so horrible I don't know whether to weep or laugh" but you end up laughing anyway. I had a run like that in LRBS some time ago. I really don't udnerstand why people leave at first set back, especially not in an instance where you can expect it. Why join in the first place?
ReplyDeletehttp://jinxedthought.blogspot.com/2010/12/tales-from-random-pug-3rd-story.html
As a DPS I've only ever quit because of the attitude of the tank or healer. I will usually wait anything out. New players have to learn some time. Bad players will not get better if they do not see how it is done.
ReplyDeleteIf the tank is rude, to anyone, I will leave. If the healer is rude, to anyone, I will leave. From my experience (not trying to sound conceited or anything) they need me a hell of a lot more then I need them.
I am often near 50% of the damage done, even in the new Zuls, had one run I was 71% of all damage done last week with not one death to any avoidable mechanic and never taking aggro from the tank. Tanks and healers love me if they do not scare me off by insulting anyone in the group because they want to be jerks.
I came into a HoO run and the tank was just standing there. They must have kicked the previous DPS so they could not kick the healer and the healer would not leave. I asked why we where waiting and the tank said he was not going anywhere until the healer leaves because he does not have enough mana to heal this.
I looked at the healers mana and noticed it was more then my Shaman had and I healed it the day before no problem. I mentioned that the healers mana was fine, lets go. This was after 15 minutes already. The tank told me, shut up, you are DPS and you will wait if I tell you to. I dropped group.
I wonder if he got the clue, I would rather wait another 30-40 minutes then deal with his crap. He is lucky that I am not one of those low life scum that would have pulled the mobs before dropping.
On my tank, if the healer pulls, I drop group. If a DPS pulls, it could be an accident. If the healer pulls, they did it on purpose and they can tank it for all I care. I'll finish the pull off, apologize that I am not as good of as tank as the healer and tell them being the healer is so good at pulling they can tank.
On my healer I play the power role. Everything that goes wrong in an instance is always blamed on the healer. If you stand your ground, as a healer, you will always win every one of those arguments.
Sorry, you get one HoT when something is under your feet, if you move, I top you off, if you stand still, you die. Not my fault you took my HoT as an indication that I am going to heal you while you stand in bad stuff.
I've been, historically, less likely to leave a group on my healer. I will stay with low DPS numbers and hope for the best as long as they do not make my job difficult.
If they make my job difficult I always say, I'm sorry but I can not heal this, and leave. I'll leave it up to them to decide what I meant by that, usually that means someone is doing stuff so stupid that there is no way I would be able to heal the instance.
All cases, I never drop group without a word. I consider that rude.
All cases, I give the group a chance. Everyone deserves a chance.
All cases, I treat everyone with respect, just as I want to be treated.
I have noticed that lately, with the shorter DPS queues, people have been quitting random Heroics at the drop of a hat.
ReplyDeleteI have four healers at 85, and I can honestly say I can't stomach pugging anymore for this reason. :( I can be very patient, walk people through every pull in a dungeon, mark CC's, whatever it takes! But most don't care for any advice from a random pug. :) I've had people drop group as soon as they see what dungeon they got and they decide they don't like it, or drop as soon as they die in a pull that could have been executed better.
As for ZG and ZA, I haven't been in there yet. I have been procrastinating waiting for my friends to get geared up so we can explore them as a full guild group and avoid the unnecessary stress that some pugs inevitably bring.
I can (possibly) explain why the shiny people left: You had 2 DPS join at the same time. Each of these new people join and know that you've already had people quit on you, so they "know" the group isn't perfect. They then saw the virgin healer leave, this would make them a little more nervous. Then a new healer joined and left straight away .. this would have the 2 DPS *very* nervous; they will be asking themselves "does the healer know something we don't? .. why is everyone abandoning this tank?"
ReplyDeleteSo they've found themselves in Z* with an unknown tank who has had 2 healers and 2 DPS bail on him.
I've had guild runs in there take hours .. it would be a very brave DPS who'd stay in those circumstances (i.e. braver than me)
Although to be honest, they were braver than me in the first place trying to PuG Z*
Soulstone works as a brez now. You should probably save it for when someone dies instead of precasting it. Glyph of Soulstone helps, too. =)
ReplyDeleteK, forget what I said, I just read your previous post XD
ReplyDeleteRandom PuG members really confuse me sometimes. Like, really. And for guildies to adopt the same mentality? /boggle.
ReplyDeleteAs a dps that has run a PUG ZA/ZG everyday since the instances were patched in I leave because
ReplyDelete1. The healer sucks/or is undergeared
2. The tank sucks/ or is undergeared
3. Its a guild group where no. 1 or 2 applies
4. We have wiped twice before
5. The dps is undergeared
6. Any of the characters state in party chat AFK for a few
7. Any character is dcced.
My guess would be that your quitters were hoping for ZA and got ZG instead. They did a random (50/50) queue for the buff and/or call to arms reward. When they didn't like the result they requeued. Or maybe they were hoping for a run that was nearer to the final boss.
ReplyDeleteI'm actually gonna be returning to wow next week after my exams (GCSEs, got biology on my birthday tomorrow.....sweet..). I have heard all this QQ about these dungeons, is it REALY that bad? ='[. The guides don't seem to hard, although thats just if u have a brain cell to spare. Im interested too if people like this show up regularly, not quiters, just people who CAN'T do it. So far, including the beginning, the cata heroics weren't that bad. Beauty /shudder
ReplyDeleteI had a case where a DPS say he was going to fix an addon and the other 3 kicked him ...no more kicks avail... then 2 of those 3 wanted me to leave on the last boss and after 20 minutes of them waiting at the beginning the tank and healer left. After 3 hours the standoff ended when I finally logged. The zuls bring out the best in pug groups!
ReplyDeleteI recently spent 43 minutes in queue waiting for a Zul... then spent over 4 hours (not kidding) working through it. In that time I saw over 5 healers, over 5 tanks, and countless DPS.
ReplyDeleteI'm well geared and topped the DPS meter the entire time, know the fights, and am nice enough to politely explain them to anyone who needs to know. I tolerate under geared and under skilled players, as we have all been there at one point... and yet 4 hours just to finish a single run.
Later that same day I waited in queue for over 30 minutes again, this time it took just over 3 hours to finish.
It was days before I could bring myself to queue up again... as it was such a miserable experience.
So what's to blame?
Part of it is the Call to Arms that is bringing in under geared and inexperienced tanks and healers.
Part of it is bad players who expect to be carried through a dungeon, and leave at the drop of a hat, with no real punishment for their bad behavior.
Part of it is skilled players who have been driven to the edge by numerous bad runs in ZA/ZG. Players who will leave at the slightest mistake as it is a sign that they are about to suffer an long, painful, and possibly fruitless run.
Part of it is that new content (even when well balanced and challenging enough to be fun) will frustrate people who don't have experience and want everything to be an easy mindless grind.
As everyone on your server slowly learns the fights, learns the tricks, gains some gear, etc. it will become better... but if Blizzard ever expects people to be able to _enjoy_ new content again, they will need to implement some major changes to prevent this type of horrible scenario.
Abandoning a group needs serious, long-term punishment. Maybe a running point system over the life of a character/account. Abandon X parties in Y days and you are ineligible for dungeons for Z days. The more this happens, the longer Z becomes.
There has to be some tolerance/threshold for abandoning a party, but this is way out of control.
@Chris I totally disagree. If you have ever tanked a train wreck run and end up with a repair bill over 100g numerous times when things start to go south and nobody listens or cooperates you are well within your rights to bail out. Not everyone has 5 hours to commit to a bad run especially when the new instances can be cleared in 30-45 minutes with a good group. I have no problem sticking around with a group that wipes a few times or someone is learning the instance. I DO however have a problem staying when someone is being abusive in group and or deliberately not listening to group advice. I've had healers intentionally cause a wipe b/c they refuse to heal anyone hit by the black wall on the panther boss. That is their way of "teaching". For stuff like that it is frustrating enough that I have to stick around until after the group wipes or ive been there long enough to not get a debuff before I can bail in hopes of a better group. I shouldnt have to wait z hours or days before I can try again due to everyone else sucking or being a pratt
ReplyDeleteI've noticed since 4.1 that in normal heroics on the first wipe, the group will fall apart. First one toon will leave, then the next then I'm stood there on my own. I am not sure why this is, I suspect it might be because the tank or healer is queueing for the bag and if a wipe happens, they know they can get back into a different and "better" group instantly, so they drop.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see some penalty for dropping out of a group, to encourage staying in there. My first ZG experience it took 2 hours and we had 3 tanks, 2 healers and some DPS changes, but I stuck in there, because everyone can't be perfect and wipes do happen.
I've now seen a tank who needed a few upgrades, running a heroic because that's where the upgrades were, get criticized for doing so. I guess some people running heroics are only there for the Valor and so, if something looks bad, will choose to quit and requeue rather than allow an instance to take a while.
Still, killing a lot of trash because you never get to the bosses is pretty good for grinding tabard reputation.
Ahhh....must post in response to all of the penalty posts on abandoning runs. How about the blatant idiotic kicks that happen? I love pvp and am pretty good and love the lw time commitment. The other day I decided I should really try to ue for a dungeon and activated my holy spec. The group didn't even let me heal or try once. They kicked me immediately. The game has a very big line across it.....pvp and dungeons. It seems very difficult in either scenario to switch playing style late in the game, these exclusive clubs won't let you.
ReplyDelete